salame with dor-blu cheese?

[Serwserw]

Hello everyone. I am the old fan of this forum but it is the first time I decided to write. Would you be so kind to read and discuss this recipe for salame. I will appresiate your expert opinion.
Lean pork– 800 g
Back fat – 200g
Ingredients per 1000g (1 kg) of meat:
Salt – 20g
Pepper – 2g
Fresh garlic – 3.5g
Sweet paprika – 9g
Nutmeg – 1g
Dor-blu cheese – 4.5% (from the hole weight)

[wheels]

Welcome, now that you've finally arrived!

Can you clarify please. When you say salami what are you actually referring to? A sausage that you make and eat within in a couple of days? Or, one that you hang to dry for a few months?

Phil

[Serwserw]

Hello. Thank you for your reply. This salami i am going to hang for drying for a few months under the temperature 10-13C, and 78 % humidity during several month.

[wheels]

I'd not be happy with this recipe for that type of sausage. The salt's too low to start with...

...and time's too short for me to explain fully why I wouldn't do this.


Phil

[Serwserw]

Hi, Phill. Thank you for your answer. But I mostly interested in compatibility of all ingridients.

[NCPaul]

I agree with wheels, low salt, no cure #2, no culture; I wouldn't waste the meat trying that. If you want to know how the flavors might work, you could drop the salt down and make it as a fresh sausage that you would cook.

[Serwserw]

I know that I haven`t mentioned in this recipe cure #2, and start cultures. But I`ve made that meaningly. Cure #2, and culture would be include in last formulation. I mostly interested in your opinion concerning compatibility of all ingridients among them (meat, paprica, garlic, peper, nutmeg and dor-blu cheese).

[BriCan]

I know that I haven`t mentioned in this recipe cure #2, and start cultures. But I`ve made that meaningly. Cure #2, and culture would be include in last formulation. I mostly interested in your opinion concerning compatibility of all ingredients among them (meat, paprica, garlic, peper, nutmeg and dor-blu cheese).

As for ingredients; after you sending me the list I pondered long and hard, as I mentioned that too me (or for me) the salt is on the high side (yes I know some/most will strongly disagree with me) -- salt at 2% + cure #2 0.25% = 2.25% + the unknown factor of the salt in the cheese so we could be now looking at anywhere between 2.5% to 2.75% or more

That aside; re the spices .. myself

Salt
Cure #2
Corn Syrup Solids/Dextrose
White pepper ground
Black pepper whole
Nutmeg
Ginger
Dor-blu cheese

I know I will have ruffled feathers .... but now you (Serwserw) have sparked my interest this will be the recipe I will be doing

[BriCan]

I agree with wheels, low salt, no cure #2, no culture; I wouldn't waste the meat trying that. If you want to know how the flavors might work, you could drop the salt down and make it as a fresh sausage that you would cook.

I do a fresh sausage that is in fact at (as all of my fresh sausage) 9g per kg at the recipe i posted and all work together as a fresh sausage -- as for doing a Salame very few of mine (if any) go over 2% salt -- So one has to take into account of the hidden salt content within the cheese, as I mentioned it is the unknown factor

Again just my thoughts on this --- again this is why my tag line is such

[wheels]

Robert. Yes you have ruffled feathers. You've come in half way through with added facts that we weren't party to. I know that you believe that low salt, without culture, salami is possible, but Serwserw is trying to do this for the first time after being hesitant of posting...

... oh, and I'm not convinced about the salt in cheese bit. it's locked in and won't add to food safety, reduced pH, or anything other than make safe cheese. Again just my thoughts on this.

[Serwserw]

Thank you Robert. Salame with dor-blu cheese are producting in my country (Ukraine). This is the recipe: lean pork, fat, salt, pepper, fresh garlic, bay leaf, coriander, dor-blu cheese, E250, culture, dextrose. In my first post I have proposed another combination of spices, more successful on my point of view.
It was not the first experience, Fill, first salame was done with parmesan.

[wheels]

Robert,
The salt in the posted recipe would be 2.15% assuming that we accept that the salt in the cheese isn't available to the whole.

FWIW Fidel Toldra, the World renowned meat scientist, says in "Principles of Meat Fermentation" p34:

Because the added salt contents may vary from 2.2% to over 3% in fermented sausages (in fermented whole meat products, from 1.7% to very high concentrations), this is enough to suppress growth of the most bacteria, especially gram negative ones (Petäjä 1977).

This reduces Water activity and contributes to safety, particularly in the early stages. I doubt that anyone can taste the difference between this and 2% after drying, so in the interests of food safety would not be pedantic and would choose to use an amount higher than 2.2%. After all, the commercial product that you've so enjoyed is likely to have a higher amount.

...and as to Robert's forum signature?

...that's best left unsaid.

Phil

[Serwserw]

This is the ultimate version of recipe. Salame according this recipe was done and put into climatic chamber under the temperature 10-13C, and 78 % humidity.
Lean pork– 40%
Pork neck - 40%
Back fat – 20%

Ingredients :
Nitrite salt – 2,0%
Pepper – 0,2%
Garlic powder – 0,35%
Sweet paprika – 0,9%
Nutmeg – 0,1%
Dor-blu cheese – 4.5%
Start cultures - Flora Italia LC - 0,25 g
Dextrose - 0,6%
Dry white wine - 5%

[wheels]

So, looking at this recipe, for 1000gm of meat/fat we have a total weight of 1136gm. contained within that is a salt content of 99.4% of the 20g nitrite cure and the 2.75% salt in the 45gm cheese (Online sources show that salt in door blu at 1100mg/100gm Sodium).

In the total sausage you have a salt content of 1.858% (Maximum).

In my opinion, and the opinion of one of the World's most eminent meat scientists, Fidel Toldra, this isn't sufficient. It doesn't mean that the salami won't be safe, just that the chances of an unsafe sausage are increased.

Given this, I suggest that you monitor the pH closely. I assume that you have equipment for accurate testing?

Phil

[Serwserw]

Thank you Fill.
First of all I want to apologize about my English. This text is very specific and probably I will make some mistakes or incorrect utterance.
Let announce my own opinion according this question. The most important "barrier" which prevent the development of harmful microflora while making sausages, is sodium-nitrate (E250). It reduce the bacteria's development in staffing during firs days after filling up the skin. It is very important, especially for the microbiology stability during this period. Other "barriers" don`t display such positive qualities. Sodium-nitrate mast have for the inhibition harmful microflora, which probably present in sausage stuffing (salmonella, clostridia and listeria). If at the moment of consumption sodium-nitrate doesn`t have antibacterial effect any more another "barriers" (such as oxidation-reduction potential, low pH level, competing microflora, low AW level (water activity), etc.) will not achieve the necessary level that mean that we will probably have defect products.
We need to provide enough quantity of the sodium-nitrate at the beginning of curing sausages. First of all it is necessary for the inhibition harmful and putrefactive microorganisms, and particularly gram-negative bacterias. Herewith development of the next "barrier" - oxidation-reduction potential reduce the influence only an anaerobic forms. At the same time if the quantity of sodium-nitrate is not enough the most dangerous pathogens (anaerobic forms) will increase. Dander of their increasing will stay until the level of other important "barrier" will become enough. Especially we need to achieve low level of pH.
If we talk about salt as a "barrier" than even high salt concentration (approximately 18%) can`t depress anaerobic forms, including botulism bacteria.
Salt as a "barrier" begin to work almost at the end of fermentation, when the water level become lower in sausage, salt concentration become higher.