Farmers Markets

[aris]

Approx how much does Public Liability insurance cost?

[Wilf]

Aris......... its about �60-70 year for the markets

[welsh wizard]

Aris / Wilf

Public Liability I have found is around �60 - �70 for the markets as Wilf correctly says. I dont know about Wilf but one of my local market groups insist on a �2m cover! However as I am going to start to do dinner parties etc I am looking at getting a broader cover (if that is possible) I have tried the site Wilf has posted and it really is VERY good indeed and well woth reading.

I personally have found the group which has offered me the most help recently is Business Link. Well worth a chat if you are thinking of opening up on your own. The biggest problem I have had is getting Farmers Markets not to see me as a butcher. the amount of times I have heard "we already have butchers on the market" is amazing. So I keep on keeping on..............

Interestingly I have found that the information you get from Enviromental Health and other bodies is very often "good practice" rather than law. And trying to segragate the two can be very difficult, so much so I now ask "is that the law or is that your opinion"? For example when I did the food safety and catering award it was run by an ex enviromental health inspector who told us very clearly (and it was in the exam paper) that meat had to be probed during cooking (good practice) and the thickest part of the joint had to reach a cooking temp of 75 degrees. I then asked IF I asked for a blue steak in a resturant (which is how I like my meat) the inside temprature of the steak would never get to a temp of 75 degrees. The answer was "you would need to tell the customer you could provide them with the steak cooked blue but could not take responsibility etc.

Oh well we live and learn - Cheers WW.

[Fisherman]

Hi,
I am an environmental health officer specialising in food safety so felt I should respond.

Much of what we ask for is good practice not a legal requirement but we are obliged by a statutory code of practice to separate the two, however, sometimes in conversations, this is not easy. There should be a clear separation in anything you receive in writing.

Anyone supplying food as part of a business must have procedures (which must be documented) in place to demonstrate that all food supplied has been properly handled and is safe to eat - the term HACCP may be familiar to some of you. Checking cooking temperatures is one of these procedures. A blue steak does not present a problem, neither does a rare whole muscle joint. Any possible contamination would be on the outside of the meat and provided the outside surface has been raised to a high enough temperature the meat is safe. Probing is unnecessary.

The situation is different with, for example, a boned and rolled joint where contamination may have been introduced into the middle of the joint. It is essential in this case to ensure that the centre of the joint reaches 75 degrees.

Enough preaching. I would like to say how much I have enjoyed the forums over the past couple of months. It's great to see there are so many people as interested in food as me. Successfull experiments to date with bacon, sausages, salami, pork pies and ham.

Ian

[saucisson]

Welcome to the forum Ian, I don't think we'll hold it against you

Dave

[Spuddy]

Welcome Ian.

It's been said before here that, if you're in business with food, the EHO should be your ally as a reference for how things SHOULD be done and not someone to fear.
You input here will be greatly appreciated, especially by those who are either in business already or are considering starting up. Please continue to post anything you feel may be relevant. I will create a section now specifically for legislation related information.

Welcome once again

Spuddy

[welsh wizard]

Hi Ian, thanks for that I was starting to get confused - and then some!

Still waiting for my visit from the Authorities though...........

Cheers WW

[welsh wizard]

Hi, I thought I should write a short update. Well, farmers markets seemingly are all full in this neck of the woods and the ones that are not consider me to be a butcher and they already have butchers at the markets. Therefore plan 2 was introduced and I applied to go onto my local markets on a two - three day a week basis, but again there were no spaces! It is extreemly frustrating!

Next step is advertising my wares and I am going to hold a tasting session in my local village hall and introduce a few other people to come on in and take a small stall to do exactly the same. This cant be a regular thing but at least it is a start and hopefully from there with a little local adverising I should be in business in a small way which will then hopefully lead to my outside catering business starting to grow.

I am being inspected (well my kitchen actually) this Thursday so we wait and see what that brings.........

Out of all this though I have been able to source organic pork shoulder from a local wholesaler @ 89p a Lb, some well priced salmon (but I have to take a quite large quantity) and some top class blade of beef. So things are progressing but at a MUCH slower rate than I would have liked......never mind.

Cheers WW

[Fallow Buck]

Hi Wiz,

what price do you get the Salmon for, and how much do you have to buy?

I've just enquired about a box of fish from bilingsgate, (about6-8 fish in the 4-5lb range) to run the smoker again.

FB

[trotters independant]

Hi WW

Not meaning to throw a further spanner in your works but I was under the impression that criteria for farmers markets meant that if you sold say steak and sausages as an example then you would have to rear the pigs and cows yourself to qualify to stand and sell your wares. Again I don't know if the criteria is different around the country or not, but I would have thought if this was the case then obviously not many farmers would have the time or want to sell in this manner thus limiting the amount of traders.

I personally can't see why you should not be allowed to be an addition to your farmers market as ones I have visited always look like they could do with some more traders, and as a previous post stated regarding ostrich meat and a big difference in price, it all boils down to choices to be made solely by the customer

You sound a very determind person and one that will stick at it, a saying in the back of my mind 'all good things come to those who wait'

Gooooooooooood Luck

[Spuddy]

Hi WW

I was under the impression that criteria for farmers markets meant that if you sold say steak and sausages as an example then you would have to rear the pigs and cows yourself to qualify to stand and sell your wares.

You've got it half right:
Farmers Markets require you to have either grown it, reared it or made it yourself to qualify as a seller.
So to sell a steak you would need to have reared the beef but to sell a sausage you would need to have made the sausage (sausages are "manufactured" i.e. they contain additional ingredients). The same applies to the Chutney and Jam sellers (they don't grow everything that's in them), cheese sellers (they don't need to be dairy farmers), bakers don't grow the wheat or grind the flour but they DO make the bread.

Catch my drift?

[welsh wizard]

Hi TI and SPuddy.

There seems to be a elasticity of the rules depending on where you go. For the markets that are quiet, the criteria for joining is a LOT less stringent than the busy ones. Where is that soap box? Oh here it is - It guiles me when I walk around the market to see sausages and bacon on butchers "vans" that you know they have just purchased from another person and there they are for sale and the criteria is, well they have been made within the county! Selling to a second party to then sell on to a third party has a lot more stringent rules ref what you put on the label. gearing up for supplying larger amounts, etc etc so the little man - me in this case - does not get a look in! I will keep on keeping on, and I will get there in the end but it is so much more difficult than I thought. Anyway, I painted some blackboards yesterday and once the inspection is over, they are goping up at the end of the lane.............Cheers WW

[Wilf]

You hit the nail on the head WW, the markets are the same around here, we been doing some for nearly 6 years and nearly 90% of the original market stalls still attends, no one drops out and hence no one gets in, so there are then the fringe ones which creep in around the place, unscrupulous organisers who dont care whos attending they're just are after pitch fees, which then upsets everyone, for instance there may be 4 egg producers next to each other!! really helpful to all, invertantly these markets then are poor or just fall by the wayside, it must be the same everywhere, but a smoked food producer or pie maker is not a farmers stall selling meat, I think the rules stipulate there can be 2 of the same producer there anyway

[welsh wizard]

Thanks Wilf

I will get there in the end via one route or another but for now all I am seeing is negative points. Anyway a great learning experience.........

Hope all is well for you - cheers WW

[welsh wizard]

Sorry I meant to add, that because mmy forray into the markets is not going according to plan I have had to take out a different liability insurance for �2m. this I have been able to get for �130 which basicaly covers all types of catering activity - but not that of mobile burger / kebab vans. Try getting insurance for those!

Cheers WW