Pumped, dry rubbed ham

[captain wassname]

Hi Oddley

Thanks very much I understand

Jim

[captain wassname]

Sorry Oddley Ive just tried to work through an example . Where do I get the moisture figure from?

It aint too hard to confuse me. I should have worked an example before my previouse post

Jim

[Oddley]

Hi captain wassname,

That's the thing! there is no moisture or very little, when you start to rub the salt in. Say we have 1 Kg meat and rub in 15 g salt.

15
--------------------- * 100 = 100% Brine concentration
(0 + 15)

As osmosis kicks in say we have 50 g liquid release from the meat.

15
--------------------- * 100 = 23% Brine concentration
(50 + 15)

As you can see the meat surface at the start of the cure has more than the 10% brine concentration required.

This is my own theory, so if anyone can find fault with my logic I would be happy to hear positive criticism.

[wheels]

Jim

Phil :

Phil said

All the curing salts (cure #1, saltpetre) could be injected in the 10% of liquid - you would normally then put the meat into the same brine which would need a lot more brine to do. Dry Curing is cheaper than brine, but would take quite a while for a ham - this recipe is a compromise between the two(IMO). It also gives protection to the interior of the meat more quickly. There may be other reasons but they elude me at present.

I hope we are talking at cross purposes I have a ham nearly finished and I used Oddleys wiltshire cure which said to inject at 10% only. I think I must have done it right as the salt petre works out at 0.06%

Yes we are talking at cross purposes. You originally asked "Is there any particular reason why cures are admistered 50% via brine injection and 50% rubbed?" Following my reply, Oddley has given his reason for trying this method of curing - it's different to my suggestions as to what his reasons might be! My suggestions are still valid though; it is cheaper than an immersion cure and offers protection to the meat more quickly than a dry cure - another is that it takes up less space in the fridge! My initial sentence is just saying that Oddley could, had he chosen to, have achieved the same ham by only using an injection cure - no dry cure. His brine would have needed to contain enough curing salts to achieve the same level of curing as the two separate types of curing in this combination method. You would still normally only inject at 10%, but the cure in the brine would be stronger.

Phil said

I've never tried it - I value my health too much - but in theory yes.

and
That depends on which scientists you believe. Levels of nitrite set by the US and EU are about the same. Levels of Nitrate (saltpetre included) vary wildly. The rules only apply to commercial producers but we would be silly to ignore them, and the scientific research behind them. The levels used by Oddley in the recipe comply with the US rules.

I have read elsewhere on the forum that up to 1000 PPM is OK hence my question about whether I would get a pinker product.
Iwould not expect a response from you if you were not comfortable with a level above 600 PPM

I am not sure whether you are asking this question in relation to Oddley's cure, or in general. In relation to this cure, you should get a good colour from the levels Oddley uses. In fact, even if you omit the saltpetre, the cure #1 should still give good colour. If you are not getting good colour the problem may rest with the meat, not the cure.

I don't quite know where you get the 600 PPM figure from? Oddley's combination cure is calculated to give 300 PPM Saltpetre (150 PPM Injected, 150 PPM Dry Cure) which is plenty for the period of time involved. That said, let's return to your original question - will more saltpetre give a pinker colour? Well in theory, it may do, but there's no guarantee that it will. To produce colour, the saltpetre has to react with the meat. This reaction, and the level to which the reaction takes place, will vary in each piece of meat; a lot could react, or very little. Other things like the curing temperature will also have an effect. The USA handbooks says that 40 PPM "is shown to be sufficient for color-fixing purposes and to achieve the expected cured meat or poultry appearance". The dynamics of saltpetre in meat is a whole topic in itself!

The other element of this question was "how much saltpetre is it safe to use".

The answer? Well what I said before, EU scientists say 150 PPM, USA between 700 PPM (immersion/injected cure) and 2187 PPM (dry cure). The USA also give a 120 PPM Minimum level of NitrIte.

So where does that leave us? Well I think that we have to make our own judgements and that a sensible approach is one between the "don't use any cure in ham" brigade, and the "Use the same (often extremely high) level of cure as my grandad did 'cos it didn't do him any harm" brigade. IMO, given that we know we are dealing with some potentially quite dangerous chemicals, what we should try to do is ensure that there is enough to make the meat safe, but not enough to 'leave an unnecessary surplus in the meat'. It's fairly apparent that 150 PPM nitrate (the EU recommendation) is believed by their scientists to achieve this, and if you were producing commercially, chances are you would use this level. I assume that Oddley believes that 300 PPM is the correct level for this type of cure, no doubt based on calculations as to how the cure is likely to perform and what residual chemicals are likely to be left in the meat. Given that the information I have relating to this subject is, I believe, the same as his, I would draw the same conclusion. Others may not agree. At the end of the day it's something that we, as individuals, have to decide for ourselves.

I hope this helps.

Phil

[captain wassname]

Hi Oddley

I have no idea of the science involved but in the absence of any dissent I presume your theory to be correct.

Can I assume the 50gms liquid to be a constant i.e. that in round figures 6gms.of rub salt would be needed to achieve a brine concentration exceeding 10%.
Thanks for your time

Jim

[captain wassname]

Hi Phil. First apologies for the confusion.I should have made it clear that the recipe that I was referring to was the first one posted on this thread,the one that Ian mentioned.Had I read your reply properly I should have realised this as soon as you mentioned cure#1.

My questions are in respect of inject and rub cures in general,inject and rub using salt petre,salt and sugar only in particular using Oddleys cure as a point of reference

I understand that it would be possible to inject the full amount of cure using a double strength brine and that to do such would involve reducing the amount of liquid in the brine by the weight of the intended rub cure but I couldnt grasp was

-you would normally then put the meat into the same brine.

My last ham I did indeed inject only and immediately wrapped and refridgerated.
Im hoping that what I did was merely not best practice rather then hazardous.

No more worries about colour the above ham turnened out distinctly pinker so I guess that I will have to learn to live with vatiable results re colour

You have been most helpfol and patient as Im finding it all a bit like peeling an onion

Many thanks Jim

[wheels]

Jim

...you would normally then put the meat into the same brine.

The first recipe in the thread uses saltpetre, a chemical that needs to react with bacteria in the meat before it can do its job. This takes time. After injection, putting the meat in the same brine as injected will cure the meat from the outside, at the same time the injected brine will cure from the inside of the meat. IMO saltpetre cures need a minimum of 9-10 days and preferably 14. The same applies when dry curing - you will note that Oddley's first recipe (saltpetre only) gives a longer curing time than the saltpetre/cure #1 recipe. By brining, or in this case dry curing, after injection, you ensure an even cure.

My last ham I did indeed inject only and immediately wrapped and refrigerated.
I'm hoping that what I did was merely not best practice rather then hazardous.

It is fine to do this, indeed it is done often commercially (I believe) for bacon etc. I would suggest using cure #1 as against saltpetre for this. I don't do it personally and so can't recommend it, but it ain't gonna kill ya! For 'quick' ham I use a cure #1 brine injected and then dunked in the brine for 5-7 days or so. For good ham I use cure #1 and saltpetre injected and dunked for 10 to 14 days (or so). In this context I am using the saltpetre mainly 'cos I like the flavour of ham better when it has some in, although it does add longer term protection to the meat if I don't get around to cooking, slicing and freezing the ham immediately.

HTH

Phil

[captain wassname]

Phil: many apologies for the delay in replyingI packed up early for christmas and didnt return until into the new year Ineed to lose some weight and have been reluctant to visit the site as I am invariably tempted by something I see
Many thanks for all your help and I am now confident to use and amend pump and rub reciepes I found this

http://www.soilassociation.org/Web/SA/s ... ad80055454

which would suggest that combination cures are more reliable for colour.
I have a shoulder joint curing at the moment using Oddleys cure with less salt and sugar and more liquid for bacon for use in a pease pudding reciepe and a pump and rub using coke. a la Spuddy for gammon rashers and salt petre again with reduced salt and sugar.

Once again thanks for your patience Idont understand the pump and dunk but thats for another day

[wheels]

Jim

That link's not working for me.

Phil

[saucisson]

Try this one:

http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/s ... c1003ec494

[captain wassname]

http://www.soilassociation.org/Web/SA/s ... enDocument

[captain wassname]

that works dont know why.

Oops we crossed Dave

Jim

[wheels]

Phil: many apologies for the delay in replyingI packed up early for christmas and didnt return until into the new year Ineed to lose some weight and have been reluctant to visit the site as I am invariably tempted by something I see
Many thanks for all your help and I am now confident to use and amend pump and rub reciepes I found this

http://www.soilassociation.org/Web/SA/s ... ad80055454

which would suggest that combination cures are more reliable for colour.
I have a shoulder joint curing at the moment using Oddleys cure with less salt and sugar and more liquid for bacon for use in a pease pudding reciepe and a pump and rub using coke. a la Spuddy for gammon rashers and salt petre again with reduced salt and sugar.

Once again thanks for your patience Idont understand the pump and dunk but thats for another day

I guess it could be read that way. Sodium Nitrite will certainly give the pink colour even at very low levels: saltpetre also will, but requires time to do its work, and is dependent on reacting with elements in the meat.

I think the document is actually more about the fact that it is far easier to predict the outcome using Sodium Nitrite as against Saltpetre - Important for large commercial concerns.

"Pump and Dunk" = "Inject and then cure in brine"

Phil

[Chris Ritchie]

Oddley Wrote:
Pump the meat at 10 % eg: pump 100 g of the cure into every 1 Kg of meat. Covering all the meat but particularly around the bones. Remember in a pork leg about 20 % is bone so take this off the meat total.



So, do I inject 10% of total weight of leg minus 20% of weight of leg

example : 5 kg pork leg = 4000 grams meat(80%) + 1000grams bone(20%)

10% injection = 4000grams x 0.10 = 400 grams

I have never read about subtracting the bone weight before calculating your % injection but it makes complete sense.