Is this too much cure # 2

Tips and tecniques on dryng drying, curing etc.

Postby Batman » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:57 pm

TLP,

1 What I was trying to get at here, is that the experience of bacon curers using nitrite and ascorbate suggests that the ascorbate reduction of nitrite is not dominant, maybe the ascorbate only mops up excess nitrite? We don't know enough about the respective reactions to make a call on that.

I agree with you re the use of ascorbate and air dried hams, though since a number of the dry cure recipes use two applications of cure a couple of weeks apart, maybe an addition of ascorbate to the second application might be a viable option. In any event the nitrAte curing might be the more important for longer cured hams.

2 We will probably have to agree to disagree on nitrosamines. I tend to take a naturally sceptical view of food scares and animal lab testing studies.

3 Fair enough. I just wonder whether 'internal' oxygen is substantially less dominant than surface oxygen available in the air.

Despite a lot of interesting speculation I'm not sure whether we've added much to the practical body of knowledge on the issue of curing :D maybe we are expecting too much. If the EFSA, don't know in detail, how or why curing with nitrites work, there's little chance we can, authoritatively fill in the gaps.

For my own part, I will:

continue to focus on basic hygiene practices,
adhere to the maximum ingoing EU limits for nitrItes/nitrAtes,
buy some ascorbate to use in short term cures,
keep my fingers crossed that all this works, and finally,
bin anything that looks and smells dodgy
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Postby This Little Piggy » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:43 pm

Quite right, Batman. Still, confusion loves company!javascript:emoticon(':?')
"Nothing exceeds like excess."

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Postby wheels » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:37 pm

Tony

Of course you are correct in your conclusions. It's what I will also continue to do. Whilst I realise that we are unlikely to add to the body of knowledge, it is surely worthwhile discussing them to consolodate our own thoughts and to highlight the issues for others, in particular in the hope that some of the 'gung ho' curers you see on other forums will visit and take note!

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Postby This Little Piggy » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:27 pm

After all our discussions, I remain convinced that nitrites remain an important ingredient for microbial control and that nitrates are important for long-curing items such as a country ham.

Still, I feel much more informed about their uses (and abuses!) than I did before, and as a result:

1) I have just bought a gram scale (accurate to .01 gr), so that I can weigh curing salts precisely;

2) I am recalculating all my recipes in order to use minimal amounts of nitrates/nitrites, more in line with European guidelines;

3) for quick-curing items (such as bacon or fermented sausages that get hot smoked) I will be adding ascorbate or one of its relatives in order to speed up the nitrite reduction; alternatively, I am also looking into using the lactic acid bacteria cultures that are sold for fermented sausages in items such as bacon, as this also accelerates the nitrite reduction.

In short, a lot of changes coming out of a few weeks' discussion. Thanks, everyone!
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Postby wheels » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:53 pm

TLP

Don't go mad all at once - change one thing at a time so you can note the effect. If you change more than on thing at once, if it goes wrong, you won't know the cause.

I look forward to reading about your experiences with cultures. It's certainly possible as can be seen here:

Curing using cultures

[url=http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/Publications/Food-Beverage-Nutrition/APFoodTechnology/Processing/Nitrite-free-Where-does-the-truth-end/(language)/eng-GB]Link to article on 'nitrite free' curing[/url]

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Texel NatuRed HT

Postby wallie » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:21 pm

Hi Phil
I was interested in that link you gave: Curing using Cultures
regarding Texel NatuRed HT and LT.
I do not suppose you know any retailers of it, or is it only available wholesale to the trade.

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Postby wheels » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:52 pm

Wallie

No I don't, I saved this in my favourites some time ago, thinking it of interest.

It would appear to only develop colour as you will notice:

The company says it has conducted laboratory tests in which hams treated with the cultures and a nitrate source from vegetable developed a similar colour intensity to those produced with equivalent quantities of nitrite salt and sodium ascorbate.


Like the guy who wrote the article in the other link, I wonder whether it's more about avoiding nitrite/nitrate on labels than developing a new method of curing. A vegetable nitrate could just be labelled as something like "vegetable extracts"; a salt with naturally high nitrate, just as salt.

It'll be interesting to see what TLP comes up with, my worry if I were doing it would be how to tell whether it's worked? How to know the level of Nitrate in (say) a celery juice?

I do accept though that it will be easier to do in the US than it would be here. The range of cultures available to the home curer is far larger than here.

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Postby Batman » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:03 pm

Phil, when I read your first link I thought it was a bit odd, claiming to be 'nitrite free' when they add 'vegetable sourced' nitrate. The second link just confirmed what I initially thought that this is probably just a marketing con, designed to get round labelling legislation and confuse/mislead the consumer. I would be surprised if the EU didn't clse this loophole.
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Postby Batman » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:05 pm

Sorry Phil, our posts must have crossed.

I suppose it raises the question of what is 'curing': preservation, enhanced taste, colour?
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Postby wheels » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:23 pm

I guess that where the culture is of interest would be in producing a 'non-cured' perishable product i.e. a fresh meat product that looks and tastes like bacon?

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Postby saucisson » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:36 pm

Have you seen this scientific paper here:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... f844b9afb0

It notes the natural levels of nitrate and nitrite found in Mediterranean sea salt. It may be no coincidence that Parma Ham originated from an area with easy access to the Italian Mediterranean coast :).

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Postby wheels » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:47 pm

Dave

Is there a way of viewing it without paying to download it - I can only see a brief abstract?

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Postby saucisson » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:01 pm

I'll see what I can do...

Dave
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Postby saucisson » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:05 pm

Not a lot, apparently...

Dave
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Postby saucisson » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:08 pm

Curing is not an exact science... So it's not a sin to bin.

Great hams, from little acorns grow...
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